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#1 2020-01-27 20:41:51

ProperCodeLtd
Member
Registered: 2020-01-26
Posts: 3

Hello

Happy New Year and the rest of Eternity for Everyone!

I'm Piotr and happy to help.

BTW, closing valuable SEO'd topics which introduced superconsultants such as yours truly to the community is a bit like shooting yourself in the foot by moderators if their main objective is to better the community: true or false? ;]

https://forum.xfce.org/viewtopic.php?pid=56278#p56278

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#2 2020-01-27 21:01:03

alcornoqui
Member
Registered: 2014-07-28
Posts: 580

Re: Hello

Hello and welcome!

True. It would be great if the threads could be closed with a tag, like, say, "inconclusive", "outdated", "already in the docs" (with a link), etc.

Even maybe a closing comment (better than the unwarranted aspersion casted by a fellow user that you suffered); sorry about that and see you around!

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#3 2020-01-27 22:05:47

ToZ
Moderator
From: Canada
Registered: 2011-06-02
Posts: 6,272

Re: Hello

My bad. Should have left a note about the closure. Feel free to create a new thread to discuss the issue. We discourage responding to really old threads - most forums do.

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#4 2020-01-28 05:34:52

Aravisian
Member
Registered: 2019-08-17
Posts: 374

Re: Hello

ProperCodeLtd wrote:

Happy New Year and the rest of Eternity for Everyone!

I'm Piotr and happy to help.

BTW, closing valuable SEO'd topics which introduced superconsultants such as yours truly to the community is a bit like shooting yourself in the foot by moderators if their main objective is to better the community: true or false? ;]

https://forum.xfce.org/viewtopic.php?pid=56278#p56278

I am glad you posted again. I was about to post a thank you note when I saw the "troll" question and the lock. More often, the poster feels brushed off and just goes away.
And- Thank you for your contribution.
I am a firm believer that the 'trend' of calling new contributions to old topics "thread necromancy" is a complete fallacy. I agree that it shoots oneself in the foot and that the pros of revisiting old topics by far outweigh the weak cons.
On many forums, the concept is accepted without independent thought and even enforced with complete disregard and rudeness. I have confronted it many times only to get the same parroted responses.
Glad to say, I will vouch for what I have observed of Toz on this forum: I have never seen him act in that rude manner.  He appears to prefer a polite and well structured forum, but he does not appear to do the common "Power Trip" or hammer-bringing many site moderators enjoy. Yes, Toz, I know you are reading this...
It's a good forum over-all with many helpful contributors.

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#5 2020-01-28 12:59:23

MrEen
Member
Registered: 2019-04-19
Posts: 138

Re: Hello

One big problem with reviving ancient threads is that the thread moves up to the top of the section. Many people (thinking mostly newbies here) will just start copying what they find without reading through the whole thread first. This includes using the Search feature (search "rotation" to see what I mean) where the topic will move up to the top of the list.

Even more experienced users will often miss the dates involved. I've seen on some of the highly active forums where a necro'd thread starts getting a ton of "that not how that's done anymore" posts from helpers that didn't notice what transpired.

That's just my take.

Welcome to the forum ProperCodeLtd! smile

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#6 2020-01-28 13:27:36

Aravisian
Member
Registered: 2019-08-17
Posts: 374

Re: Hello

MrEen wrote:

Even more experienced users will often miss the dates involved. I've seen on some of the highly active forums where a necro'd thread starts getting a ton of "that not how that's done anymore" posts from helpers that didn't notice what transpired.

This makes sense. But much like a thread getting occasionally derailed with tangents, sometimes it is a beneficial thing and sometimes it is not.
You have given an example of a 'con' that may happen sometimes. But that is not justification for something being treated as an Absolute Law much less it being enforced with severity, rudeness and strange accusation. Such as calling any person that "necro's" a thread a "troll," etc.
We are old. Not young, anymore. We have all spent at minimum a decade on this here interwebs seeing exactly what I am talking about over and over again.
EDIT: (I want to point out that this forum is unusual in that I have NOT seen a lot of those behaviors here...Though I have seen a more polite version of it and acceptance of the Law of the Net. I have also only ever seen one active Moderator which may play a part in that).

MrEen wrote:

One big problem with reviving ancient threads is that the thread moves up to the top of the section. Many people (thinking mostly newbies here) will just start copying what they find without reading through the whole thread first. This includes using the Search feature (search "rotation" to see what I mean) where the topic will move up to the top of the list.

I do not see how that is a problem. At all. It's kind of the point, in fact.
I mean, if an old thread gets revived and shows new pertinent information that relates to the old information- This Is GOOD. Not bad. And it bumping to the top of the list is what all threads do when someone posts - It does this For A Reason. I cannot imagine why someone would think that could be a problem.
Now, if someone posts nonsense in an old thread, causing it to bump to the top uselessly, I can see how someone might find that annoying. But let's be logical: They must also find the NEW thread started with nonsense sitting at the top just as annoying. Banging a fist on the table and declaring. "Thread Necromancy is the fodder of Satan Spawn!" doesn't seem so relevant when you look at it that way- -Any similar action in a New Thread must therefore be just as Satanly evil.
Unless a new Absolute Law of the interwebs that thou shalt not start new threads comes along...

I have been a forum Moderator- on one forum for about three years. I have been on Forums for most of the time I have been on the internet at all.
-Occasionally, a thread gets necro'ed by mistake.
-Rarely, a thread gets necro'd by a troll or spammer. These days, that is more rare than it once was. No rule being applied to ordinary posters would have any effect on that.
-Occasionally a thread gets necro'd by a poster asking about a solution or problem that is now outdated. But this is as above, no different from if they started a new thread on that- they would get the same exact answer only without the rude chastisement for daring to reply to an existing thread.
-Most often, I put forth, the thread gets necro'd ON TOPIC. On science forums this is easier, whereas on forums like these, usually by someone still using an Old OS or Old System. But they are, relative to themselves, still on topic. And the arrogant attitude and rude smackdown(Observed far, far more often elsewhere than here) usually results in that poster not getting helped at all. (Arch Linux forums, anyone...?)

So, I hear what you are saying about the "oops" that happens but it just doesn't seem like a big deal and it does not justify being jerks.
A bit of perspective: How many people that get snapped at for necromancy feel confused and so sheepishly apologize (For not really having done anything wrong) and try asking their question again only to be heading into that now "out of favor" with those who could have helped?
How many people just decide to silently not participate with that forum and could have contributed or helped others or been helped themselves?
How many people react as a normal human being and snap back - and wow how dare they defend themselves - and end up punished, banned, etc?
All over something that is not a big deal even when it is a mistake and at worst, is annoying and at best is beneficial, relevant and on topic- but still punishable based on "netitude" and "bandwagon-mentality?"

I have had this debate for years and most Moderators just adopt that attitude of "I'm right, you're wrong. Shut up." They usually do not like inane and universally accepted bandwagon laws like this one questioned, much less are willing to question their own judgment.

Last edited by Aravisian (2020-01-28 13:30:49)

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#7 2020-01-28 14:35:43

ToZ
Moderator
From: Canada
Registered: 2011-06-02
Posts: 6,272

Re: Hello

In my experience with reviving old threads, I find the following:

  1. The person who originally made the request/had the issue is most probably not around. Yes, the content may solve an issue or contain information pertinent to today, but the flow from issue to resolution is lost (software versions have changed , bugs patched, new functionality added,etc).

  2. People re-act differently when this happens. Some don't like it, others don't mind. It creates conflict.

  3. I've had plenty of experience with first posts being spam/trolling on this site - especially in scenarios like this. My apologies to ProperCodeLtd, but that post followed a pattern and I closed the thread to see what would happen.

That being said, I will clean up the thread and re-open it. Thanks for calling me out on it.

Aravisian wrote:

Glad to say, I will vouch for what I have observed of Toz on this forum: I have never seen him act in that rude manner.  He appears to prefer a polite and well structured forum, but he does not appear to do the common "Power Trip" or hammer-bringing many site moderators enjoy. Yes, Toz, I know you are reading this...

Guilty as charged. I also don't like the heavy-handedness in some forums. I understand why they feel they need to do it, but I disagree with the approach. We're here to help everyone and each other - no need for "over-moderating". That being said, I still have some responsibilities to ensure that this forum continues to be a viable, helpful resource to the community:
- remove spam/trolling
- ensure civil and respectful discourse
- deal with account requests, issues, etc
- keep the form live and active

Aravisian wrote:

EDIT: (I want to point out that this forum is unusual in that I have NOT seen a lot of those behaviors here...Though I have seen a more polite version of it and acceptance of the Law of the Net. I have also only ever seen one active Moderator which may play a part in that).

Behaviours come and go. It's been pretty smooth around here for a few months, but it comes and goes. There are a number of people with moderator rights but right now I'm the only one who is really active. Perhaps its time to get a second moderator on board.

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#8 2020-01-28 20:50:27

MrEen
Member
Registered: 2019-04-19
Posts: 138

Re: Hello

Aravisian wrote:

I do not see how that is a problem. At all. It's kind of the point, in fact.
I mean, if an old thread gets revived and shows new pertinent information that relates to the old information- This Is GOOD. Not bad.

Personally, I don't have an issue with it. The point I was making is the people that see something offered in an old post and start copying the instructions, without having read through the entire thread. There are a lot of people that do that.

Here's an example of the type of issue that can occur. I mainly help in the Mint forum with sound issues. An old standard reply used to be to enter this in the terminal:

apt remove --purge alsa-base pulseaudio
apt install alsa-base pulseaudio
sudo alsa force-reload

The problem with that is the Mint devs have made pulseaudio a dependency of Cinnamon, so those not watching the terminal, or not understanding what it's telling them will have all things Cinnamon removed as such:

The following packages will be REMOVED:
  alsa-base cinnamon cinnamon-dbg libcanberra-pulse mint-meta-cinnamon pulseaudio
  pulseaudio-module-bluetooth

Recovery is simple when you know what you're doing, but many newer users (and some not-so-new users) end up freaking out when their desktop environment is gone. Most Mint forum threads with those outdated instructions are now well buried, but there's still plenty of instructions on the net advising those steps.

And please keep in mind a new user that's still on the fence about trying Linux. In the above situation, they started with sound trouble and ended up in a much worse situation. Some may have given up on Linux at that point.

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#9 2020-02-12 19:01:47

ProperCodeLtd
Member
Registered: 2020-01-26
Posts: 3

Re: Hello

Apology accepted, of course.

Thank you for your kind words and encouraging amounts of applied logic, everyone.

If there's a vote on general rule regarding necroing threads, I would be with "the pros of revisiting old topics by far outweigh the weak cons" argumentation. I did not see argument winning me over to anti-necro side which would trump 'I found your forum following google search for the particular issue I was struggling with and while the answers I found here were outdated they pointed me in the right direction so I decided to repay by updating the already well-SEOed thread of the forum'.

Moderators are able to judge case by case, if they make mistake but reverse it within reasonable time, no lasting damage is done unless someone gets offended easily.

Glad to be of service ;]

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#10 2020-02-18 16:39:38

bollullera
Member
Registered: 2020-02-18
Posts: 1

Re: Hello

Hello!!

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