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#101 2021-03-02 00:29:10

denyer
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2018-10-20
Posts: 63
Website

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

Would tend to agree that MATE isn't on a particularly stable evolutionary branch, but haven't found problems with Qt being lightweight, modular and configurable -- the people developing the main DE from it aren't particularly worried. I'm not sure that everything I use has a non-GTK variant, but I also think that if GTK winds up significantly broken it'll be forked. Similarly Wayland is something that's a way off (and X.org will get life support if enough people can't do what they want with it) and not all developers have the same aims. There's enough reasonable people around.

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#102 2021-03-15 15:45:55

netcat
Member
From: Russia
Registered: 2021-03-11
Posts: 3

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

I would like to side with the opponents of the CSD. This is a true evil that generates the entropy of the visual style. It's a pity that everything looks the way it looks.

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#103 2021-03-20 15:37:43

janp
Member
Registered: 2016-02-05
Posts: 22

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

After trying, for my new rig, almost all the desktops available on Arch Linux I went back to xfce.
Definitely the best overall for me.

A brief summary of the desktops I tried. Premise: the desktop must have launchers like XFCE one.

- lxqt, lxde, fast but definitely too basic
- Enlightement: blazing fast, but not so simple to configure, lack of themes (decent ones are IMHO just 3/4).
    depending on theme, windows can be resized only from the bottom. Has launchers but only horizontal
    ones (i.e. they extend along the panel and not perperdicularly). Quite good but development is slowwwww and a lot of work is still needed (30 years were not enough for it).
- cinnamon: definitely good looking, maybe too few configuration options, and no vertical launchers, has several (buggy) applets
- Mate: quite good, has vertical launchers (not as good as xfce) more configuration options than cinnamon. Looks dated and a bit "sad" however.
- Kde: kde has everything, but also tons of bugs. Has vertical launchers as Xfce but harder to setup
(Xfce amongst all has the easiest and clever way to modify panel and add items and widgets). Often
hangs with no reason (kde components i.e. the panel or the applet simply freeze randomly for a second or for a minute, apps run normally).
It was the inital choice until I lost my patience and uninstalled almost all (kept kdevelop and some other tools).
Moreover the appearance of KDE definitely suck. Icons are almost all "flat", the default breeze theme is bad looking.
There are plenty of themes but only a few worth considering.

After several days with KDE finally I went back to XFCE 4.14 (well I took some components from 4.16)
At this point I am realy worried. The only decent desktop for linux is going to be killed by its creators with the totally dumb CSD idea.

I am here to ask to GO BACK. Please please please, throw away the CSD idea or leave us the choice to work the old way.
Xfce is *perfect* , maybe it needs improvements and to be kept on par with tecnology developments but visually and functionally it is perfect. It's simple, it's fast, it hasn't everyting but just what is needed and does it well. WHY adopt CSD when it's used only in some setting panels. There was simply NO reason to do so. It brings No usefulness, No improvement, it only breaks the interface and worsen the user experience.

Ah, one option I would like to have from KDE. The option to add the window manager frame to the dumb CSD apps which I am forced to use.

Thank you

Last edited by janp (2021-03-20 15:52:14)

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#104 2021-03-20 15:53:35

ToZ
Moderator
From: Canada
Registered: 2011-06-02
Posts: 8,284

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

You can use libxfce4ui-nocsd to disable CSD and revert to previous SSD window management.

Also, commenting in https://gitlab.xfce.org/xfce/libxfce4ui/-/issues/14 will bring this to the developers attention (not sure how often they visit here). IMO, making CSD optional would be the best compromise between user and developer desires.

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#105 2021-03-20 18:46:43

janp
Member
Registered: 2016-02-05
Posts: 22

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

ToZ wrote:

You can use libxfce4ui-nocsd to disable CSD and revert to previous SSD window management.

Also, commenting in https://gitlab.xfce.org/xfce/libxfce4ui/-/issues/14 will bring this to the developers attention (not sure how often they visit here). IMO, making CSD optional would be the best compromise between user and developer desires.


I did  both, No more Csd with libxfce4ui-nocsd, and this is great (I read about this library but I was a bit skeptical without your endorsement),
I posted in the developers forum too.

Thank you very much ToZ.

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#106 2021-03-21 00:11:14

peter.48
Member
Registered: 2017-01-31
Posts: 86

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

@ janp
I totally agree with you in terms of desktop environments, I am almost an extreme case: I do not understand how a person with a bit of brain, after trying several environments can choose anything other than XFCE ... is the only truly configurable environment, quite intuitive, logical, functional and ergonomic (with its bugs and defects obviously, but relatively few - instead not repaired for years and years...).

ToZ wrote:

IMO, making CSD optional would be the best compromise between user and developer desires.

As I have read in the explanations of the developers that the decision to move to CSD is taken among other things to save work, I doubt if such an option is considerable since it adds work (on the one hand all that is necessary to maintain "non-CSD" and on the other hand CSD itself).

janp wrote:

Icons are almost all "flat", the default breeze theme is bad looking.

Attention that the Inquisition has ears everywhere, this sounds like heresy, "flats" and breeze-like are the TREND since a few years (this, that in many cases are difficult to "read" and recognize, is an insignificant detail). It doesn't matter if old styles (Adwaita, Gnome etc) are good and easy to recognize and "read", what counts is to change to "modern", the question is in the change itself, not in improving...

janp wrote:

WHY adopt CSD when it's used only in some setting panels. There was simply NO reason to do so.

I already mentioned it somewhere, but it is an important detail to debate absurd "pro CSD" reasons, all we can see are things that we use very rarely (how many times a day we open the panel parameters window?! because I, once my environment is configured I never use it, who opens at least once a day "color profiles"?...etc.).
Another argument "pro" of the same lack of weight, is to save vertical space, I would like to make a poll to know how many of us use resolutions lower than 1080, no doubt there are still people with 17" screens and resolutions 1366x768, but they are becoming fewer (if it would not be so, we would not have so much demand for scaling functionality).

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#107 2021-03-21 03:06:30

File Manager
Member
Registered: 2019-11-01
Posts: 37

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

Red Hat and gtk developers have decided to end traditional gtk desktops. This will happen when gtk5 is released and support for gtk3 ends. I wouldn't blame Xfce developers because there probably isn't much they can do about it.

The shareholders/oligarchs that own Red Hat and Microsoft don't want FOSS to be a viable alternative. FOSS is Gnome. Gnome is FOSS. KDE is the controlled opposition. Nothing else should exist, except maybe a few window managers on Wayland. It's as simple as that. There is no free lunch.

The only path forward for Xfce and other gtk3 desktops is a gtk3 fork. Are people willing to do that? I don't know. We'll see. And then there is Wayland which combined with gtk5 will put an end to many DEs. I thought that maybe Linux Mint would fork gtk3, but I'm not so sure anymore. They could transition Cinnamon to gtk4.

Enjoy Xfce and X.org while they are still around. Maybe thank Red Hat for the free stuff they gave away. I have donated about $2000 to FOSS projects so I haven't been a freeloader in the FOSS world. I feel more sad for people who have worked hard on projects that now go down the drain.

Last edited by File Manager (2021-03-24 19:38:39)

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#108 2021-10-03 11:02:50

blueclochard
Member
Registered: 2021-10-03
Posts: 1

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

At first they said CSD would only be in some Xfce settings windows, but other applications are following as well now. For example Task Manager and Mousepad have been ported to CSD already. It would be nice to have an official statement from the Xfce developers. Is it the idea that eventually all of Xfce will be ported to CSD? I tried to find a statement, but have not been able to find anything. It would be nice to know where Xfce is heading.

I know there are a few hacks around to remove headerbars, but they only bring back the title bar. It's much more than that though. CSD applications increasingly tend to do away with the menu bar (File, Edit, View, etc.) and replace it with a hamburger menu. For keyboard users such as myself, they are a nightmare to use. I just find myself grabbing my mouse to search for things that are placed differently in almost every application. I'm clicking here and clicking there all the time to achieve the same things that were simple before. Anyway, no need to explain why I think this is a bad idea. Enough has been said about that by others hundreds of times already.

Looks like it cannot be avoided. It's not just Xfce, but also many other GTK applications that are changing to CSD. I have been a loyal Xfce user since 2006, but will probably need to look elsewhere in the future. The current Ubuntu LTS is still supported until 2025. Hopefully by that time, LXQt will have improved a bit and otherwise KDE Plasma looks promising as well.

Just expressing my sadness here. Feels like back in the day when I started using Xfce, I married a beautiful and happy woman, who now is turning into a bitter feminist who takes pleasure in obstructing all the things I want to achieve. Yes, sure, make fun of me. A nerd who doesn't like change and compares his desktop environment to a woman wink

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#109 2021-10-03 13:57:27

ToZ
Moderator
From: Canada
Registered: 2011-06-02
Posts: 8,284

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

From the 4.18 roadmap:

Migrate more applications to CSD

IMO, making CSD optional would be a good compromise here. It would be best to post your comments in this this bug report where it will get the attention of the core developers.

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#110 2021-10-03 21:46:46

dusthillresident
Member
Registered: 2021-08-11
Posts: 24

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

Looks like I'll be switching to Mate after using XFCE over 10 years. Too bad it's dead set on following gnome off a cliff.

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#111 2021-10-16 13:29:28

denyer
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2018-10-20
Posts: 63
Website

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

ToZ wrote:

From the 4.18 roadmap:

Migrate more applications to CSD

IMO, making CSD optional would be a good compromise here. It would be best to post your comments in this this bug report where it will get the attention of the core developers.

The comments about failing to integrate with HUD are insightful -- in breaking from use of menus, developers are signalling that they don't understand or care about the effect on accessibility.

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#112 2021-10-19 11:16:07

dusthillresident
Member
Registered: 2021-08-11
Posts: 24

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

denyer wrote:
ToZ wrote:

From the 4.18 roadmap:

Migrate more applications to CSD

IMO, making CSD optional would be a good compromise here. It would be best to post your comments in this this bug report where it will get the attention of the core developers.

The comments about failing to integrate with HUD are insightful -- in breaking from use of menus, developers are signalling that they don't understand or care about the effect on accessibility.

The Gnome developers surely don't care about it at all.

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#113 2021-10-20 17:28:35

Vinifera
Member
Registered: 2021-07-19
Posts: 8

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

gnome is cancer for linux
dont understand why is it so followed much ...

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#114 2021-10-22 14:49:54

dusthillresident
Member
Registered: 2021-08-11
Posts: 24

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

client side decorations MUST be made optional.

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