Xfce Default Theming and Layout

Linux in a Bit · 2024-04-19 03:04:27

I've been wondering about this for a while, and I figure I should finally share my thoughts here.

Almost everybody I see recommending Xfce seems to throw in some disclaimer to the effect of, "It looks kinda ugly by default, but it's really easy to theme."

I definitely agree with that, customizing Xfce is fantastic and incredibly simple, however, it shouldn't be something anyone has to do.
So my question is, why hasn't the default look of Xfce changed?

The community is obviously talented enough to make something better, look no further than right here on this forum, and at the very least we could modernize what we currently have.
I think almost everyone here can recognize that this would, at the very least, be an improvement to the user experience on stock Xfce.

I hope this inspires at least some conversation on the topic and I can't wait to see what the future of Xfce has in store!
Thank you :)

Edit: For reference, here is the official screenshot of Xfce's current default layout and theme:

Last edited by Linux in a Bit (2024-04-21 02:11:53)

eriefisher · 2024-04-19 10:58:00

I would rather it just come as it does and I'll do my own changes to fit my needs. Out of the box XFCE4 does what it needs to do, get out of the way of the user and be light on resources. I think it achieves that goal just fine. I have no interest in having to start striping away bloat and excess like in KDE and Gnome.

Linux in a Bit · 2024-04-19 14:23:23

eriefisher wrote:

I would rather it just come as it does and I'll do my own changes to fit my needs.

Updating defaults will not effect your ability to make any changes. If you enjoy the current defaults, it will be trivial to change it back, though hopefully a new default theme and/or layout will be good enough that you won’t feel the need to

eriefisher wrote:

Out of the box XFCE4 does what it needs to do, get out of the way of the user and be light on resources. I think it achieves that goal just fine.

A new default look will not change that, Xfce will be as light as ever, and a new default will not remove or drastically change any functionality, just make the desktop look and feel better by default.

eriefisher wrote:

I have no interest in having to start striping away bloat and excess like in KDE and Gnome.

Why would this be necessary at all? A new default would be identical in performance, and come from the Xfce community.

It is important to remember that even though very small aesthetic updates like the ones suggested here will be controversial with some, they are very important, and will elevate Xfce’s perception from “an old-looking desktop for slow PCs” to something people might actually consider when they’re choosing between the likes of Gnome and KDE.

Xfce’s core values of performance, simplicity, and customizability should never change, but Xfce needs to keep up in terms of default aesthetics.

Last edited by Linux in a Bit (2024-04-19 16:04:56)

CwF · 2024-04-19 15:26:49

This is a common question/desire over at debian. Neither need to come overly configured in any way in order to encourage/welcome/impress new users. Neither need to come configured at all - That is what vanity/specialty/end-user Distro's are for. When you look around at many of those examples, many are Xfce on Debian, use one of those.

Any user that thinks some implementation is ugly or not useful is not entering the Linux world at the correct point to match their abilities/experience/expectation.

Linux in a Bit · 2024-04-19 15:52:59

CwF wrote:

Neither need to come overly configured in any way in order to encourage/welcome/impress new users. Neither need to come configured at all - That is what vanity/specialty/end-user Distro's are for. When you look around at many of those examples, many are Xfce on Debian, use one of those.

I am not asking for Xfce to suddenly be overly configured by default. Like I have previously said, a new default should not drastically change functionality.
Sane defaults that hold up to the expectations of modern Linux users are, however, very necessary. The only changes would simply be theme updates and layout tweaks.
This should not add any configuration defaults, it should simply update and modernize the current ones.

Again, the point is not to drastically alter the default experience of Xfce. The point is to improve it in ways that make sense for the current state of Linux and the demands of modern users to ensure the survival of the Xfce project.

The updates I am suggesting are very minimal for a pretty sizable benefit of more people actually using Xfce. The hardest part is coming to a consensus on what the best course of action is.

Last edited by Linux in a Bit (2024-04-19 16:05:20)

ToZ · 2024-04-19 16:06:09

One of the challenges that Xfce faces is that it no longer develops Gtk themes of its own - the only one that is available to upstream Xfce is the default Adwaita one that is built into Gtk. And its not feasible for upstream Xfce to ship someone else's theme (to make sure that it is available on all potential installs) since it doesn't "own" that theme. And to CwF's point, its the distro that can put these final touches on the presentation of Xfce to their user base.

That being said, there may be some opportunity to create a new layout/configuration using the default Adwaita theme. If you are interested, you could create an enhancement request at https://gitlab.xfce.org/xfce/xfce4-settings/-/issues and propose some potential Adwaita-based layouts/configurations and see what the developers say.

Linux in a Bit · 2024-04-19 16:10:09

I will look in to that, thank you

vm_x · 2024-04-19 16:16:29

I understand where you're coming from and appreciate your enthusiasm, it shows a strong urge which can only come from someone who really likes the project.

But on the other hand, I don't think it's necessary. The XFCE community is a very specific group of people that knows exactly what they want and why, and likes things the way they are, for as long as possible. I don't think a modernised look would be much appreciated by most of us, as we already know the tool and don't need to be visually impressed by it on regular intervals. We like things being changed only when it can no longer be avoided, not just for the sake of change.

XFCE is much liked by its community for a reason, and changing it just to attract a new user base might only upset the current user base, and still fail to impress the new one.

The distros are free to style their XFCE variants however they like, and I think that's beautiful and enough.

Linux in a Bit · 2024-04-19 17:42:59

Fair, I figured even mentioning updating Xfce’s defaults would be pretty controversial for hardcore Xfce users, but this is the case in many open source projects.
I believe there is a middle ground where it’s possible to update the default configuration to an extent that it at least is no longer considered “ugly by default”, while still keeping the same feel and not upsetting the majority of Xfce users.

Remember that hardcore users of any project are almost always in a very vocal minority, and change is always considered a bad thing by those people. The hard part is figuring out which changes are actually bad vs. changes that are truly beneficial but simply angering that vocal minority.

I believe minor tweaks to Xfce’s default appearance fall in to the latter of those two categories and are necessary for the project’s continued wellbeing.

The truth is a very large number of Xfce users want it to look different. You can see that in the sheer number of “How to make Xfce look better” articles and posts all over the internet. I believe this is a silent majority that is larger than you can imagine.

Last edited by Linux in a Bit (2024-04-19 17:45:55)

vm_x · 2024-04-19 18:16:12

Linux in a Bit wrote:

I believe minor tweaks to Xfce’s default appearance fall in to the latter of those two categories and are necessary for the project’s continued wellbeing.

I believe the software passion of a handful of developers and the quality of user feedback is what keeps XFCE alive, not being up to date with the latest trends in the aesthetics department.

Even minor updates can sometimes propagate quite violently, and since stability and compatibility play such a big part in this project, I believe most of us aren't interested in any updates that bring no actual value functionality wise.

Linux in a Bit wrote:

The truth is a very large number of Xfce users want it to look different. You can see that in the sheer number of “How to make Xfce look better” articles and posts all over the internet.

I would argue XFCE users want a great deal of customization, and there aren't many, if any, who just stick with defaults.

If it was up to me, I would ship it even less configured.

In conclusion, as far as I am concerned, you are MORE than welcome to create a new amazing XFCE theme, those are truly lacking. And who knows, if it stands the test of time, it might become a new default someday.

Linux in a Bit · 2024-04-19 19:40:37

vm_x wrote:

Even minor updates can sometimes propagate quite violently, and since stability and compatibility play such a big part in this project, I believe most of us aren't interested in any updates that bring no actual value functionality wise.

That is fair, it definitely won’t be as simple as setting the theme to something like arc-dark and calling it a day. ToZ actually pointed out that Xfce can’t use anything except Adwaita. I still believe there are other changes that can be made without breakage.

vm_x wrote:

I would argue XFCE users want a great deal of customization, and there aren't many, if any, who just stick with defaults.

I can agree that there are very few users who stick with the defaults, but also remember that most people consider Xfce’s defaults to be “ugly”. If given better defaults, how many would still customize their experience? I’d argue less would, indicating at least some users customize Xfce because they need to, not because they necessarily want to.

vm_x wrote:

In conclusion, as far as I am concerned, you are MORE than welcome to create a new amazing XFCE theme, those are truly lacking. And who knows, if it stands the test of time, it might become a new default someday.

https://xkcd.com/927/

Last edited by Linux in a Bit (2024-04-19 19:42:46)

vm_x · 2024-04-19 20:30:04

Linux in a Bit wrote:

I still believe there are other changes that can be made without breakage.

Can you give a few concrete examples? What are the exact things that bother you the most and would be significantly better with minimal changes?

Linux in a Bit wrote:

I’d argue less would, indicating at least some users customize Xfce because they need to, not because they necessarily want to.

The thing is, customization isn't just a theme.

For example, I don't care how a dock looks, the very first thing I do on a fresh install is remove the dock.

Whenever I see peoples' XFCE desktops, I see a very wide range of different ways people use their computers. Different ways to launch applications, manage windows, position panel(s), run jobs, etc etc.

Theme colors and icons are secondary, if even that.

That's why I'm interested to hear about the specific things that actually bother you, because I'm not sure you're talking about the utilitarian or aesthetic side of things, given that you posted the xkcd I can't see the relevance of for this debate.

ToZ · 2024-04-19 21:27:04

Also to note that the package xfce4-panel-profiles does come with some pre-set panel layouts.

Linux in a Bit · 2024-04-19 22:53:14

The whole experience of going back to Xfce to do this has reminded me why I left for Budgie about a year ago, but also led me to miss Xfce. I miss a few niche options and the sheer snappyness of Xfce, while Budgie just works, is super simple, and looks so good, even by default.
I honestly just don't know.
Xfce has almost everything I want, and it would be my DE of choice when giving recommendations, but I just can't trust that whatever distro someone picks will have a good default experience in the same way I can with Budgie (except Ubuntu Budgie, but at least that's an exception).
Honestly it's just been bothering me and I guess I just needed to say something.

I figured there would be such little downside to changing the default theme and layout of a desktop environment that basically everybody customizes anyway, but apparently there's just something I'm not seeing.
I guess in the end it's just not really worth my time, because nobody else seems to care enough...

Sidenote; this is about what I would suggest for a default layout that most people wouldn't feel the need to change, though I doubt many would accept this drastic of a change (Of course you would replace the icons and theme with Adwaita if necessary):

And on Budgie for context:

Last edited by Linux in a Bit (2024-04-21 03:57:28)

vm_x · 2024-04-20 07:08:26

Well ... I don't think you've made a strong argument, or maybe it's just me that's not seeing it. All in all, not convinced. Cheers.

Augie77 · 2024-04-20 19:52:32

I am perfectly fine with the Xfce DE, if I wanted it to look like Cinnamon then I would have installed that bloated DE. Xfce is the only DE I found that suits me perfectly well, and does not require any beauty treatments, for my taste anyway. Well; other than changing backgrounds, but that is a given with probably any DE. Wanting a picture of your family as a background is not acknowledging the DE needs beauty treatments.

Too many users want to be trendy, current, relevant, etc. and they end up thinking up new ideas that really are horrid to use. Such as the razor thin scroll bars in an app that does not provide a option to widen the bar. Or crappy cursors that have a hard time grabbing that razor thin scroll bar. Neat little gadgets for the youth with good eyes, and the ferret minded users that need something new every other month.

I installed the KDE desktop on Debian a few weeks ago. After fifteen minutes of screwing with Dolphin, I had had enough. No need to learn a 'new way' to use a file manager just because someone had a 'better' idea about function and appearance.

For those that want pretty, there is Cinnamon and they will be happy with that, until their taste changes and and it seems to do that on a near monthly basis, then they want more and different icons and what-nots. A bit of what happened to Mint Virginia I suppose, a boatload of icons, fonts, and colors. The next release will probably have even more.

Xfce fills the bill, gets the job done in a logical and thorough way. I consider Xfce to be the working man's DE.

Linux in a Bit · 2024-04-21 02:13:29

You seem to be misunderstanding my intentions.
Please read this reply for some clarification.

Last edited by Linux in a Bit (2024-04-21 02:14:34)

Linux in a Bit · 2024-04-21 02:29:44

Oh, I also deleted an earlier post about this, but here's what Xfce could look like if it actually used new Adwaita themes and icons instead of what looks to be just very old versions of both (concept on the right):

Please open both in a new tab to compare in more detail.

Last edited by Linux in a Bit (2024-04-21 02:29:56)

eriefisher · 2024-04-21 11:37:58

I prefer Greybird over Adwaita and I'm pretty sure I have the latest.

Linux in a Bit · 2024-04-21 13:53:20

That looks pretty good, though I believe Xfce unfortunately can’t use any theme but Adwaita by default (see ToZ’s reply for why), however even with those limitations, something like this is still possible:

Last edited by Linux in a Bit (2024-04-21 14:07:05)

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#1 2024-04-19 03:04:27

Xfce Default Theming and Layout

#2 2024-04-19 10:58:00

Re: Xfce Default Theming and Layout

#3 2024-04-19 14:23:23

Re: Xfce Default Theming and Layout

#4 2024-04-19 15:26:49

Re: Xfce Default Theming and Layout

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Re: Xfce Default Theming and Layout

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Re: Xfce Default Theming and Layout

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Re: Xfce Default Theming and Layout

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Re: Xfce Default Theming and Layout

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#13 2024-04-19 21:27:04

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#14 2024-04-19 22:53:14

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Re: Xfce Default Theming and Layout

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