Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

Reaccion Raul · 2020-09-06 14:13:17

To me, it's an improvement. Having almost un-grabbable borders is a really really annoying bug. Developers and supporters can say whatever they want about creating themes with thicker borders, control + right click and whatnot. The reality is that almost every XFCE distribution out there has this same bug. This means in reality designers don't want to create themes with huge borders because it looks horrible, deal with it, and fix it. I understand in the end they have decided to go with the GTK 3 CSD phase as it solves this issue and who knows what else.

janp · 2020-09-06 17:32:07

Reaccion Raul wrote:

To me, it's an improvement. Having almost un-grabbable borders is a really really annoying bug. Developers and supporters can say whatever they want about creating themes with thicker borders, control + right click and whatnot. The reality is that almost every XFCE distribution out there has this same bug. This means in reality designers don't want to create themes with huge borders because it looks horrible, deal with it, and fix it. I understand in the end they have decided to go with the GTK 3 CSD phase as it solves this issue and who knows what else.

What is the improvement u'r talking about ? U wrote about cleanliness and now about ungrabbable borders.
Anyway, under current Xfce implementation I am using both traditional apps and CSD apps, e.g., the Opera browser and Microsoft Teams. I have problems in "grabbing borders" with the latter apps mainly because the window manager does not draw borders for them, otherwise everything is fine. The presence of a border (I chose a window decoration with a thin one) helps the eye to find the right point to start the "grab".
These CSD apps have a huge and ugly squared headerbar and no borders which do not match other windows style and never will.
In the traditional scheme the border is drawn by the window manager which has several window decorations available. Some with huge borders and some with no borders at all. The choice is upon the user, as it should be, not on the designer.

CSD it's an, IMHO, wrong, philosophy which hasn't been implemented to fix a border-grabbing problem.

Although I'm a programmer I was not interested in UI design until I discovered that Xfce was embracing CSD, an idea that sounded immediately wrong (to be polite) to my mind.

It was a confort to discover that there are persons much more competent than me in this field that think the same way.

Below you can find a couple of links that explain in a rock solid way why it's wrong.

https://pointieststick.com/2018/12/18/on-headerbars/

https://medium.com/@probonopd/make-it-s … a0fb369b42

I find GTK much more snappier than Kde/Qt but unfortunately its evolution is not good. I read that Gtk4 will kill the menu concept also...
It would be great if someone fork Gtk(2 maybe) because serious work cannot follow the trendy ideas of some geeks.

Last edited by janp (2020-09-06 17:35:15)

denyer · 2020-09-06 20:24:10

Reaccion Raul wrote:

To me, it's an improvement. Having almost un-grabbable borders is a really really annoying bug. Developers and supporters can say whatever they want about creating themes with thicker borders, control + right click and whatnot. The reality is that almost every XFCE distribution out there has this same bug. This means in reality designers don't want to create themes with huge borders because it looks horrible, deal with it, and fix it. I understand in the end they have decided to go with the GTK 3 CSD phase as it solves this issue

It could be solved like MATE and Plasma do by having larger grab areas when using a compositor.

One of the main Xfce and Xfwm4 developers who now works on Wayland and GNOME stuff doesn't want to -- https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11808

All this points in the direction of Xfce being a bit of a lost cause for users who dislike GNOME and Elementary style desktop environments.

Last edited by denyer (2020-09-06 20:50:10)

Azuma Hazuki · 2020-09-13 16:07:47

I've been using Xfce since 2004 when I started on Linux (on *Gentoo* no less!). The switch to GTK3 forced me most of the way off it. The switch to CSD will likely force me away completely.

What happens with Xfwm4 themes, by the way? Does CSD imply that the decorations are packed/written within the current GTK3/4 theme?

geekland · 2020-09-13 19:35:01

Oww Check next images of CSD ...

https://9to5linux.com/xfce-4-16-first-l … provements

My worst nightmares come true. I really hope someane fork xfce

denyer · 2020-09-14 13:11:33

Someone has forked the components:

https://github.com/Xfce-Classic/libxfce4ui-nocsd

This is a fork of libxfce4ui with the explicit goal of removing Client-Side Decorations (CSD).
Currently, functions introduced in somewhere between libxfce4ui 4.15 and 4.16 enable CSD by default for all applications that use the XfceTitledDialog class. This is a rather invasive UI change and, for some, is entirely unwanted. Since, upstream has indicated that they have no intention to allow users to turn CSD off, this fork exists to allow users to disable CSD in any applications that use libxfce4ui.
We implement all CSD-specific functionality as ABI-compatible shims that simply forward to the relevant GtkDialog methods. This allows upstream applications built against upstream libxfce4ui to function with no modifications.

Personally, having to fight a desktop environment to retain features is a big part of why I moved away from Windows. I'd suggest it may be better to look for a DE developed by people who engage with its users, use its forums, etc.

But it's possible the fixed components might find their way into the main Xfce-using distros, giving users (many of whom will be non-technical given Xfce's traditional audience) an easier choice.

Azuma Hazuki wrote:

What happens with Xfwm4 themes, by the way?

They don't work (like various other Xfwm4 features don't work). If you're using an Xfwm4 theme the CSD windows will fall back to another theme such as Adwaita.

geekland · 2020-09-14 22:00:29

I really hope that fork goes ahead and the result obtained is stable and long lasting. When I see the window decorations I just have the feeling to use gnome shell. I really don't know why such enormous window title bar can bring something positive. They will just break consistency between application and waste screen pixels.

To be honest.. If I wanted to use CSD decorations I would switch to Gnome. If XFCE just want to be a follower... Then follow the leader... And for me the leader is not Gnome.

griffin · 2020-10-03 16:12:55

CSD coming to Xfce is the news I never wanted to read. I thought I had found my computing nirvana with Manjaro and Xfce working and looking exactly the way I want it to, but it seems nirvanas never last very long. I too hope for the fork else I'll have to switch DE's.

julian · 2020-10-11 11:35:20

^^^^^ What they said.

This is actually quite sad. I need to agree with everyone here.

I really strongly dislike the "GNOME" style. I didn't realise it was called CSD (Something Something Decorations) until today. I didn't know that it was a GNOME thing that I've been trying desperately to find an alternative to for a couple years. I just was very excited that I discovered Xfce during COVID and there was an operating system that felt right, that had clear defined borders around windows, I could position the 'Title text of the app' on the left next to the icon, rather than have it floating around in the middle, I also thought the ability to "roll up" the window into the title bar was pure GENIUS. A visible 'menu bar' rather than than the idiotic hamburger menu navigation, no useless bar at the top of the screen etc. I have been on-boarding users who were traditional Windows users into Xfce as a result. I truly was excited that my circle, my community, can finally make Microshaft redundant with this platform.

Forget KDE. It's too confusing and buggy. They don't even understand the benefit of basic margins (no offense). I didn't survive 10 minutes trying to onboard people to KDE. It's plain ugly.

I finally found an operating system that I could offer to traditional Windows users as a replacement, and they were digging it! I've been ecstatic about this and have been working my butt off setting it up for people.

Now I come on these forums and discover the awful, awful news that Xfce are devolving into this "GNOME" Way.

I personally think there are shadowy entities doing what they can to make GNU/BSD+Linux inconsistent and awful to use (like OSX). This allows Microsoft to remain the dominant player. Over the past few months I have tried to contact GNOME about improving some of their games and such. They seem to be behind an iron-curtain and I was not able to contact them. They consistently blocked my emails with a service called BarracudaNetworks, I tried different avenues to attempt to put forward improvements and contribute (anonymously, but regardless) and they seem to have a great wall (-I mean) secure system that denies people that ability. Now it's all becoming quite clear to me, how Murkysoft are perverting GNU/BSD software.

This stuff about "ungrabbable borders" is so ridiculous. It can be solved instantly by various distros and has been by my distro.

This has all been very enlightening. Sorry to say but now that I see the bigger picture, things are worse than I even realized.

Back to square one to start searching for an operating system again. Ughhhh.

The struggle is real. We must all be strong.

Last edited by julian (2020-10-11 12:17:19)

denyer · 2020-10-11 13:20:58

julian wrote:

I personally think there are shadowy entities doing what they can to make GNU/BSD+Linux inconsistent and awful to use (like OSX).

It's easy to see conspiracies but projects do well enough sabotaging themselves. Most are disadvantaged by not having real data to inform decision-making, and when you combine that with small closed circles and a few devs making decisions over users and other devs it's not really any wonder that things like gedit happen.

waxhead · 2020-12-17 05:20:25

Howdy, I am yet another very happy XFCE 4.14 user , I just registered on this forum to join the CSD resistance.

I am actually willing to chip in to have this removed. Yes, I'll pay part of whatever the price would be to have this dreadful stuff gone! How much?!

Signy · 2020-12-17 08:50:13

I can not agree more with your opinion about CSD. I also dislike the way in which XFCE is changing - it just slowly looses reasons why I want to use XFCE.
The story is similar to Google Chrome and FireFox - when FireFox started "being like Chrome" so there was less and less reasons why to use FireFox.
With every new version of XFCE I have spent more and more time to "fix" new changes. It started with gtk3-nocsd (and I can not be grateful enough for this library). When I moved from Xubuntu 18.04 to 20.04 I had to spend a lot of time by improving the theme I use (based on ancient Crux theme). Fixing the new Thunar took a while, getting rid of symbolic icons took another time (and it is still in progress because I still need to create some new Tango icons which are missing).

And it is painful to read that in GTK4 is going to remove menu bar. I really hope there will appear something which will be able to get the menu bar back (kind of transform hamburger icon into menubar).

Last edited by Signy (2020-12-26 08:32:22)

konomi · 2020-12-26 03:09:05

Just leaving my preference here, I've been using XFCE a long time and I don't wish to see Client Side Decorations (CSD) be any part of XFCE. I'm moving to MATE to avoid 4.16.

geekland · 2020-12-26 08:38:59

XFCE 4.16 it's here. Even worse than I really thought. Ugly and useless CSD. And in addition some some plugins like xfce4-windowck-plugin broken. After 10 years using XFCE is time to change to another desktop. Really unhappy with this release. It's time for mate or Plasma.

peter.48 · 2020-12-26 22:58:28

geekland wrote:

I really hope someane fork xfce
Really unhappy with this release.

+1

I don't know why, but when I look at the images of the new xfce, I get the impression that devs works on the smartfones and hence the results...

For me it's clear, I'm going to use xfce until Fedora goes to 4.16 (I hope it won't be already in 34), and then to mate, lxde or something similar. It's time to start experimenting with other DEs to see possibilities of customization and stability.

acut3 · 2020-12-27 21:35:59

I had no idea this change was in the plans. Terribly disappointed to see XFCE adopting CSD. Now their applications don't even respect XFCE's own "window manager" settings, and I'm forced to used windows that look and behave differently from everything else. Who came up with such a brilliant idea? I'm baffled.

Last edited by acut3 (2020-12-27 21:42:38)

geekland · 2020-12-27 21:58:27

acut3 wrote:

I had no idea this change was in the plans. Terribly disappointed to see XFCE adopting CSD. Now their applications don't even respect XFCE's own "window manager" settings, and I'm forced to used windows that look and behave differently from everything else. Who came up with such a brilliant idea? I'm baffled.

Doesn't matter who had the idea. All the development team decided to go ahead. And once the decision was taken some users complained. But the smart developers didn't listen. So in the next 2 years they will notice if decision they took was correct or not. In 2 years they will see if users increase or decrease. In my opinion will lose some but time will show the reality

linuxer_gr · 2020-12-28 11:47:52

Hi all,

I just registered into this forum, although been an XFCE user for many years, alone with XFCE ISO builder for Artix Linux, to support the nocsd option for XFCE.

This as a not really necessary application, ever since users complain, plus there is no need to have a Gnomish look or feel, so I also consider that this should be removed.

Regards

Last edited by linuxer_gr (2020-12-28 11:48:08)

ToZ · 2020-12-28 14:03:49

Just a quick note to people who are registering to add their voice against the decision to move to CSD. The developers rarely participate in the forums. Here is an open ticket discussing the issue with a request to make it optional. This would be the better place to comment if you want to get the developer's attention.

rhtoras · 2020-12-28 14:13:52

I am also against the csd and xfce should know about the flamewars coming. Becoming gnomish is not a good thing. XFCE is the #1 desktop no doubts for me. The other desktop i am looking closely is deepin, but till now is buggy. I like how xfce offers a set of xfwm themes, mofit(unix), gnububble(mac), xp(windows), it's own themes and so on. I like how all the configurations exist together, on settings manager. I wish you could add search by default on thunar but ok, i can live without it. No doubt about that!
Basically i like how xfce works and responds. I don't want a bloat desktop, with bugs coming from all the bells and whistles other de's offer (like cube windows e.t.c.). In the end of the day we all want to do our tasks easily.

Xfce= 1.Stability 2.Lightness 3.Customization(default) 4.Easyness 5.Posix Things Gnome leaves in the past.
We want xfce®.-

Last edited by rhtoras (2020-12-28 14:16:58)

denyer · 2020-12-28 17:12:05

rhtoras wrote:

I wish you could add search by default on thunar but ok, i can live without it. No doubt about that!

You could give https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemo_(file_manager) a try -- it's very similar to Thunar but with integrated search.

geekland · 2020-12-28 22:25:21

ToZ wrote:

Just a quick note to people who are registering to add their voice against the decision to move to CSD. The developers rarely participate in the forums. Here is an open ticket discussing the issue with a request to make it optional. This would be the better place to comment if you want to get the developer's attention.

In my opinion is a waste of time.

1. Decision was taken long time ago.
2. They knew some people was against of their decision. They mentioned it in their personal blogs. They knew was a controversial decision. But they didn't listen. I'm sure they also saw this post. They tried to justify but I completely disagree with their point of view.
3. The job is done. His MASTERPIECE is finished. Now I really hesitate they change something now.

XFCE each day is less XFCE and more GNOME. Orage and many other projects disappears bit by bit. Probably there are few XFCE developers and bad paid but people must face the reality.

In my case I've already moved to i3. Never used a tilling window manager before. Now I'm writing from i3 and I'm enjoying so much.

denyer · 2021-03-01 15:28:59

Sean on switching focus to Elementary OS, after helping to introduce changes to Xfce to make it more like Elementary.

https://bluesabre.org/2021/02/28/and-no … different/

"As for why I've started to transition away from the Xfce world, it's hard to summarize. Conversations about CSD, packaging formats, theming, feature sets... Everybody's got an opinion. Many of these opinions are important and move the Linux desktop forward, but more often than not the conversation goes sour. This is particularly relevant for Xfce, a classic desktop paradigm favored by users that don't like change. The experience I want to build and the technologies to build it are better aligned with the elementary project than Xfce."

Kind of a shame he didn't draw that conclusion before the changes, really.

mint4all · 2021-03-01 17:53:19

Signy wrote:

.... With every new version of XFCE I have spent more and more time to "fix" new changes. It started with gtk3-nocsd (and I can not be grateful enough for this library). When I moved from Xubuntu 18.04 to 20.04 I had to spend a lot of time by improving the theme I use (based on ancient Crux theme). Fixing the new Thunar took a while, getting rid of symbolic icons took another time (and it is still in progress because I still need to create some new Tango icons which are missing)....

Greetings to y'all! As I have stated before in some of my other posts, I believe it is a serious mistake to "de-feature" a desktop environment -- like Xfce -- for the sake of "progress". Replacing a usabiliuty feature that works (example: button sizes in menus) with an "enhancement" that doesn't work, or only poorly (example: upscaling those 16x16 button icons thereby making them blurry) is a poor design choice, ime.

This also goes towards CSDs. They may work ok on tablets, or smart phones, or touch-screen laptops, but they tend to throw design consistency & usability (of both apps & system-GUI) to the wind. Fortunately, The "gtk3-nocsd" library has now been added to the repos, and can by easily installed via apt or synaptics. Couldn't this option be added to the "window manager settings"? Give people a choice, that would be my suggestion.

Just my 2 pfennigs worth of wisdom... Cheers, m4a

File Manager · 2021-03-01 20:22:41

The simple answer might be that there is no future for gtk as a Linux toolkit. It has been a Gnome toolkit since gtk3 and gtk4 just makes this point extra clear.

Xfce 4.16 is pretty frustrating to configure, so after 4.16 I might go to MATE or LXQt. Because of gtk3 MATE is also on the deathbed and the devs don't seem to have a plan how to save it when gtk3 support ends.

My personal belief is that at the end of gtk3 support, Linux Mint might have to step in and fork/save gtk3. Or Linux Mint just transitions Cinnamon to gtk4, but then it will lose the traditional aspect.

I'm mostly interested in LXQt because it's lightweight, modular, configurable and low-tech (in a good sense). I used Xfce because I wanted to get away from complicated things, but now Xfce has become complicated (CSDs, systray merge, renamed icons - both symbolic and renamed). In many ways I feel Xfce 4.12 is the best version, despite that useful features have been added after this version was released.

If I could get Whisker menu and a few other panel plugins from Xfce in LXQt I would be ready to switch today. Xfwm works well with LXQt.

Qt isn't ideal so ultimately I'm hoping for the STLWRT project to succeed. We really need a stable community toolkit in Linux and not being dragged by corporate giants.

Ultimately those who created desktop Linux; the corporations (Red Hat being the prominent player) are now making sure that desktop Linux goes nowhere other than in the direction of Gnome desktop.

Add some Wayland on top of that and things are pretty dark:
https://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/wayland-2021.html

Xfce Forum

Sub domains

#76 2020-09-06 14:13:17

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

#77 2020-09-06 17:32:07

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

#78 2020-09-06 20:24:10

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

#79 2020-09-13 16:07:47

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

#80 2020-09-13 19:35:01

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

#81 2020-09-14 13:11:33

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

#82 2020-09-14 22:00:29

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

#83 2020-10-03 16:12:55

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

#84 2020-10-11 11:35:20

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

#85 2020-10-11 13:20:58

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

#86 2020-12-17 05:20:25

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

#87 2020-12-17 08:50:13

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

#88 2020-12-26 03:09:05

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

#89 2020-12-26 08:38:59

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

#90 2020-12-26 22:58:28

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

#91 2020-12-27 21:35:59

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

#92 2020-12-27 21:58:27

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

#93 2020-12-28 11:47:52

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

#94 2020-12-28 14:03:49

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

#95 2020-12-28 14:13:52

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

#96 2020-12-28 17:12:05

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

#97 2020-12-28 22:25:21

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

#98 2021-03-01 15:28:59

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

#99 2021-03-01 17:53:19

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

#100 2021-03-01 20:22:41

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

Board footer