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#76 2020-09-06 14:13:17

Reaccion Raul
Member
Registered: 2018-04-25
Posts: 18

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

To me, it's an improvement. Having almost un-grabbable borders is a really really annoying bug. Developers and supporters can say whatever they want about creating themes with thicker borders, control + right click and whatnot. The reality is that almost every XFCE distribution out there has this same bug. This means in reality designers don't want to create themes with huge borders because it looks horrible, deal with it, and fix it. I understand in the end they have decided to go with the GTK 3 CSD phase as it solves this issue and who knows what else.

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#77 2020-09-06 17:32:07

janp
Member
Registered: 2016-02-05
Posts: 19

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

Reaccion Raul wrote:

To me, it's an improvement. Having almost un-grabbable borders is a really really annoying bug. Developers and supporters can say whatever they want about creating themes with thicker borders, control + right click and whatnot. The reality is that almost every XFCE distribution out there has this same bug. This means in reality designers don't want to create themes with huge borders because it looks horrible, deal with it, and fix it. I understand in the end they have decided to go with the GTK 3 CSD phase as it solves this issue and who knows what else.

What  is the improvement u'r talking about ? U wrote about cleanliness and now about ungrabbable borders.
Anyway, under current Xfce implementation I am using both traditional apps and CSD apps, e.g., the Opera browser and Microsoft Teams. I have problems in "grabbing borders" with the latter apps mainly because the window manager does not draw borders for them, otherwise everything is fine. The presence of a border (I chose a window decoration with a thin one) helps the eye to find the right point to start the "grab".
These CSD apps have a huge and ugly squared headerbar and no borders which do not match other windows style and never will.
In the traditional scheme the border is drawn by the window manager which has several window decorations available. Some with huge borders and some with no borders at all. The choice is upon the user, as it should be, not on the designer.

CSD it's an, IMHO, wrong, philosophy which hasn't been implemented to fix a border-grabbing problem.

Although I'm a programmer I was not interested in UI design until I discovered that Xfce was embracing CSD, an idea that sounded immediately wrong (to be polite) to my mind.

It was a confort to discover that there are persons much more competent than me in this field that think the same way.

Below you can find a couple of links that explain in a rock solid way why it's wrong.

https://pointieststick.com/2018/12/18/on-headerbars/

https://medium.com/@probonopd/make-it-s … a0fb369b42

I find GTK much more snappier than Kde/Qt but unfortunately its evolution is not good. I read that Gtk4 will kill the menu concept also...
It would be great if someone fork Gtk(2 maybe) because serious work cannot follow the trendy ideas of some geeks.

Last edited by janp (2020-09-06 17:35:15)

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#78 2020-09-06 20:24:10

denyer
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2018-10-20
Posts: 47
Website

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

Reaccion Raul wrote:

To me, it's an improvement. Having almost un-grabbable borders is a really really annoying bug. Developers and supporters can say whatever they want about creating themes with thicker borders, control + right click and whatnot. The reality is that almost every XFCE distribution out there has this same bug. This means in reality designers don't want to create themes with huge borders because it looks horrible, deal with it, and fix it. I understand in the end they have decided to go with the GTK 3 CSD phase as it solves this issue

It could be solved like MATE and Plasma do by having larger grab areas when using a compositor.

One of the main Xfce and Xfwm4 developers who now works on Wayland and GNOME stuff doesn't want to -- https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11808

All this points in the direction of Xfce being a bit of a lost cause for users who dislike GNOME and Elementary style desktop environments.

Last edited by denyer (2020-09-06 20:50:10)

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#79 2020-09-13 16:07:47

Azuma Hazuki
Member
Registered: 2020-09-13
Posts: 1

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

I've been using Xfce since 2004 when I started on Linux (on *Gentoo* no less!). The switch to GTK3 forced me most of the way off it. The switch to CSD will likely force me away completely.

What happens with Xfwm4 themes, by the way? Does CSD imply that the decorations are packed/written within the current GTK3/4 theme?

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#80 2020-09-13 19:35:01

geekland
Member
Registered: 2020-01-17
Posts: 6

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

Oww Check next images of CSD ...

https://9to5linux.com/xfce-4-16-first-l … provements

My worst nightmares come true. I really hope someane fork xfce

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#81 2020-09-14 13:11:33

denyer
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2018-10-20
Posts: 47
Website

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

Someone has forked the components:

https://github.com/Xfce-Classic/libxfce4ui-nocsd

This is a fork of libxfce4ui with the explicit goal of removing Client-Side Decorations (CSD).

Currently, functions introduced in somewhere between libxfce4ui 4.15 and 4.16 enable CSD by default for all applications that use the XfceTitledDialog class. This is a rather invasive UI change and, for some, is entirely unwanted. Since, upstream has indicated that they have no intention to allow users to turn CSD off, this fork exists to allow users to disable CSD in any applications that use libxfce4ui.

We implement all CSD-specific functionality as ABI-compatible shims that simply forward to the relevant GtkDialog methods. This allows upstream applications built against upstream libxfce4ui to function with no modifications.

Personally, having to fight a desktop environment to retain features is a big part of why I moved away from Windows. I'd suggest it may be better to look for a DE developed by people who engage with its users, use its forums, etc.

But it's possible the fixed components might find their way into the main Xfce-using distros, giving users (many of whom will be non-technical given Xfce's traditional audience) an easier choice.

Azuma Hazuki wrote:

What happens with Xfwm4 themes, by the way?

They don't work (like various other Xfwm4 features don't work). If you're using an Xfwm4 theme the CSD windows will fall back to another theme such as Adwaita.

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#82 2020-09-14 22:00:29

geekland
Member
Registered: 2020-01-17
Posts: 6

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

I really hope that fork goes ahead and the result obtained is stable and long lasting. When I see the window decorations I just have the feeling to use gnome shell. I really don't know why such enormous window title bar can bring something positive. They will just break consistency between application and waste screen pixels.

To be honest.. If I wanted to use CSD decorations I would switch to Gnome. If XFCE just want to be a follower... Then follow the leader... And for me the leader is not Gnome.

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#83 2020-10-03 16:12:55

griffin
Member
Registered: 2020-10-03
Posts: 1

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

CSD coming to Xfce is the news I never wanted to read. I thought I had found my computing nirvana with Manjaro and Xfce working and looking exactly the way I want it to, but it seems nirvanas never last very long. I too hope for the fork else I'll have to switch DE's.

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#84 2020-10-11 11:35:20

julian
Member
Registered: 2020-09-07
Posts: 29

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

^^^^^ What they said.

This is actually quite sad. I need to agree with everyone here.

I really strongly dislike the "GNOME" style. I didn't realise it was called CSD (Something Something Decorations) until today. I didn't know that it was a GNOME thing that I've been trying desperately to find an alternative to for a couple years. I just was very excited that I discovered Xfce during COVID and there was an operating system that felt right, that had clear defined borders around windows, I could position the 'Title text of the app' on the left next to the icon, rather than have it floating around in the middle, I also thought the ability to "roll up" the window into the title bar was pure GENIUS. A visible 'menu bar' rather than than the idiotic hamburger menu navigation, no useless bar at the top of the screen etc. I have been on-boarding users who were traditional Windows users into Xfce as a result. I truly was excited that my circle, my community, can finally make Microshaft redundant with this platform.

Forget KDE. It's too confusing and buggy. They don't even understand the benefit of basic margins (no offense). I didn't survive 10 minutes trying to onboard people to KDE. It's plain ugly.

I finally found an operating system that I could offer to traditional Windows users as a replacement, and they were digging it! I've been ecstatic about this and have been working my butt off setting it up for people.

Now I come on these forums and discover the awful, awful news that Xfce are devolving into this "GNOME" Way.

I personally think there are shadowy entities doing what they can to make GNU/BSD+Linux inconsistent and awful to use (like OSX). This allows Microsoft to remain the dominant player. Over the past few months I have tried to contact GNOME about improving some of their games and such. They seem to be behind an iron-curtain and I was not able to contact them. They consistently blocked my emails with a service called BarracudaNetworks, I tried different avenues to attempt to put forward improvements and contribute (anonymously, but regardless) and they seem to have a great wall (-I mean) secure system that denies people that ability. Now it's all becoming quite clear to me, how Murkysoft are perverting GNU/BSD software.

This stuff about "ungrabbable borders" is so ridiculous. It can be solved instantly by various distros and has been by my distro.

This has all been very enlightening. Sorry to say but now that I see the bigger picture, things are worse than I even realized.

Back to square one to start searching for an operating system again. Ughhhh.

The struggle is real. We must all be strong.

Last edited by julian (2020-10-11 12:17:19)

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#85 2020-10-11 13:20:58

denyer
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2018-10-20
Posts: 47
Website

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

julian wrote:

I personally think there are shadowy entities doing what they can to make GNU/BSD+Linux inconsistent and awful to use (like OSX).

It's easy to see conspiracies but projects do well enough sabotaging themselves. Most are disadvantaged by not having real data to inform decision-making, and when you combine that with small closed circles and a few devs making decisions over users and other devs it's not really any wonder that things like gedit happen.

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