killing Gnome

rayandrews · 2012-05-20 19:09:22

All,

Running LMDE Xfce edition, and the latest upgrade pack wanted to install 1177 packages, and convert me to Gnome 3 whether I like it or not. I don't. I'd like to uninstall all the Gnome stuff I can, but I know that Xfce uses some Gnome packages and I'm wondering if there's some way to figure that all out -- what I can remove, vs. what Xfce needs for itself.

M_Mynaardt · 2012-05-21 03:53:13

rayandrews wrote:

All,
Running LMDE Xfce edition, and the latest upgrade pack wanted to install 1177 packages, and convert me to Gnome 3 whether I like it or not. I don't. I'd like to uninstall all the Gnome stuff I can, but I know that Xfce uses some Gnome packages and I'm wondering if there's some way to figure that all out -- what I can remove, vs. what Xfce needs for itself.

I had the same problem trying to install LMDX (LMDE for Xfce) too. Tried it a couple of times and it kept on trying to be a Gnome wannabe. I finally gave up and went with Xubuntu instead.

rayandrews · 2012-05-21 13:55:20

M_Mynaardt wrote:

rayandrews wrote:
All,
Running LMDE Xfce edition, and the latest upgrade pack wanted to install 1177 packages, and convert me to Gnome 3 whether I like it or not. I don't. I'd like to uninstall all the Gnome stuff I can, but I know that Xfce uses some Gnome packages and I'm wondering if there's some way to figure that all out -- what I can remove, vs. what Xfce needs for itself.
I had the same problem trying to install LMDX (LMDE for Xfce) too. Tried it a couple of times and it kept on trying to be a Gnome wannabe. I finally gave up and went with Xubuntu instead.

So I finally got those 'upgrades' installed. By doing it a few at a time, and fixing the breakages, and skipping a few and coming back to them latter, and rebooting a few times, and having to do a few from CLI, and having to remove a few libraries by hand, and a few other tribulations ... she's upgraded and no Gnome 3.

Windows never looked better. Mint never looked so bad. Arch never beckoned so sweetly. Debbie, mousy as she is, never looked more like the girl for me.

But I still hope that one of the devs can give us some list of necessary Gnome components.

M_Mynaardt · 2012-05-21 14:01:49

rayandrews wrote:

So I finally got those 'upgrades' installed. By doing it a few at a time, and fixing the breakages, and skipping a few and coming back to them latter, and rebooting a few times, and having to do a few from CLI, and having to remove a few libraries by hand, and a few other tribulations ... she's upgraded and no Gnome 3.
Windows never looked better. Mint never looked so bad. Arch never beckoned so sweetly. Debbie, mousy as she is, never looked more like the girl for me.
But I still hope that one of the devs can give us some list of necessary Gnome components.

You could try Xubuntu, like I did. Xubuntu has been working just fine for me. The ISO is much smaller, the initial install is much faster. I just had to spend more time installing the apps I like, but that wasn't too bad.

Up until I had my problems with LMDX, I had been keen on Mint. So the problems I had with trying to get LMDX to work (unsuccessfully) was rather disappointing.

rayandrews · 2012-05-21 14:37:40

M_Mynaardt wrote:

rayandrews wrote:
So I finally got those 'upgrades' installed. By doing it a few at a time, and fixing the breakages, and skipping a few and coming back to them latter, and rebooting a few times, and having to do a few from CLI, and having to remove a few libraries by hand, and a few other tribulations ... she's upgraded and no Gnome 3.
Windows never looked better. Mint never looked so bad. Arch never beckoned so sweetly. Debbie, mousy as she is, never looked more like the girl for me.
But I still hope that one of the devs can give us some list of necessary Gnome components.
You could try Xubuntu, like I did. Xubuntu has been working just fine for me. The ISO is much smaller, the initial install is much faster. I just had to spend more time installing the apps I like, but that wasn't too bad.
Up until I had my problems with LMDX, I had been keen on Mint. So the problems I had with trying to get LMDX to work (unsuccessfully) was rather disappointing.

I'm sick and tired of distro surfing sad Besides, I want to get as close to the 'Mother' distro as I can (Debian) so that I'm not at the whims of some repackaging chain:

Debian > Buntu > Mint .... bad
Debian > LMDX ... better
Debian .... best

In the case of Xubuntu, I don't like being at the mercy of Mark S as to what works and what doesn't, I want full Debian compatibility, which LMDE claims to have. But I take your point -- if Mint doesn't fix this then I'm gone, but probably to Arch or Debian Testing.

Keith Hedger · 2012-05-21 14:53:46

Try Slackware if you don't like dependencies being dragged in, it's a "grown up" distro that expects you to do that sort of stuff yourself and the philosophy behind the distro is to keep the packages as close to vanilla as possible, the slackware forums are very helpful but slackware DOESN'T hold your hand!

rayandrews · 2012-05-21 16:31:48

Keith Hedger wrote:

Try Slackware if you don't like dependencies being dragged in, it's a "grown up" distro that expects you to do that sort of stuff yourself and the philosophy behind the distro is to keep the packages as close to vanilla as possible, the slackware forums are very helpful but slackware DOESN'T hold your hand!

Yup, I've always admired the slacker attitude to things in general. Tried it when I was a raw noob and had the predictable bad time, but I've never stopped wanting to give it another go, now that I have some idea what I'm doing. OTOH Slackware seems to loose more 'market share' every year and I've always thought that there's no reason why a modern distro shouldn't manage dependencies automagically, in theory anyway. I'm inclined to think that what Mint did here was not so much looking after dependencies for me as much as it was deciding for me that I wanted G3 (when I don't). But I definitely want to move to a more hands on distro. Tell me, how would you compare Slackware vs. Arch?

M_Mynaardt · 2012-05-21 17:52:02

rayandrews wrote:

M_Mynaardt wrote:
You could try Xubuntu, like I did. Xubuntu has been working just fine for me. The ISO is much smaller, the initial install is much faster. I just had to spend more time installing the apps I like, but that wasn't too bad.
Up until I had my problems with LMDX, I had been keen on Mint. So the problems I had with trying to get LMDX to work (unsuccessfully) was rather disappointing.
I'm sick and tired of distro surfing Besides, I want to get as close to the 'Mother' distro as I can (Debian) so that I'm not at the whims of some repackaging chain:
Debian > Buntu > Mint .... bad
Debian > LMDX ... better
Debian .... best
In the case of Xubuntu, I don't like being at the mercy of Mark S as to what works and what doesn't, I want full Debian compatibility, which LMDE claims to have. But I take your point -- if Mint doesn't fix this then I'm gone, but probably to Arch or Debian Testing.

I don't mind experimenting with distros. It's just like when I was a teenager and experimenting with stuff; but in a constructive way nowadays! big_smile

As far as different Xfce distros goes... I have heard good things about both Saline and Aptosid. Both of those are Debian based.

Keith Hedger · 2012-05-21 18:03:53

I've never tried arch but I gather they are pretty much the same sort of distro, I gather arch is source based much like slackware which aside from the core components is all built on demand via a system called slackbuilds, I have been using slack for about 18months now and I think it is the best distro to use once you have learned a bit about linux, I tried it when I first went to linux and was just totally confused so I would not recommend it to a noob, I did used to keep a copy of debian on my HD for emergencies but have recently dropped that, slackware may be the oldest distro but I believe its got a long life ahead of it yet.
If you want to check out the 3rd party support have alook at www.slackbuilds.org there's a slackbuild for just about everything there, there is also a multi-lib repo that is maintained by one of the main slackers called AlienBob which has loads of 32/64 bit stuff.
I have tried ( in depth not just a quick install and then wipe ) debian,ubuntu ( 64/32 bit and ppc ),sabayon and fedora and slack is definitely on top.
There is a gnome2 installation for slack at gnomeslackbuild.org which I used to use but I have now dumped gnome in favour of xfce, slack comes with KDE and Xfce 4.6 but vers 4.10 builds and installs fine ( I'm using 4.10 ) and also of course comes in 32/64 bit.
Hope this helps.

rayandrews · 2012-05-22 00:38:18

Keith Hedger wrote:

I've never tried arch but I gather they are pretty much the same sort of distro, I gather arch is source based much like slackware which aside from the core components is all built on demand via a system called slackbuilds, I have been using slack for about 18months now and I think it is the best distro to use once you have learned a bit about linux, I tried it when I first went to linux and was just totally confused so I would not recommend it to a noob, I did used to keep a copy of debian on my HD for emergencies but have recently dropped that, slackware may be the oldest distro but I believe its got a long life ahead of it yet.
If you want to check out the 3rd party support have alook at www.slackbuilds.org there's a slackbuild for just about everything there, there is also a multi-lib repo that is maintained by one of the main slackers called AlienBob which has loads of 32/64 bit stuff.
I have tried ( in depth not just a quick install and then wipe ) debian,ubuntu ( 64/32 bit and ppc ),sabayon and fedora and slack is definitely on top.
There is a gnome2 installation for slack at gnomeslackbuild.org which I used to use but I have now dumped gnome in favour of xfce, slack comes with KDE and Xfce 4.6 but vers 4.10 builds and installs fine ( I'm using 4.10 ) and also of course comes in 32/64 bit.
Hope this helps.

I'd like to hear some opinions of Arch vs. Slack from folks who have used both.

Jristz · 2012-05-22 02:49:01

if you want linux-mint-debian xfce, you can try intall/reintall the latest iso (201204) if you have a separated home this can help, actuali the only update is the thunderbird and firefox 12

for other side, remmember remove gnome folders (configs and other) from you home, this can in my experience make bad thiks bad

lifeinthegrey · 2012-05-24 01:58:54

I know Arch is the best XFCE distro, but if you are at Xubuntu / LMDX level then that transition will be ... difficult. Honestly, Debian Testing + XFCE is RIDICULOUSLY smooth, way more lightweight, and you can be completely GNOME-free if you want. I personally chose to install gnome-network-manager and gcalctool because I prefer those apps over wicd and galculator, but thats it. Plus, the transition will be much easier because you already know the apt packaging system.

rayandrews · 2012-05-24 03:12:48

lifeinthegrey wrote:

I know Arch is the best XFCE distro, but if you are at Xubuntu / LMDX level then that transition will be ... difficult. Honestly, Debian Testing + XFCE is RIDICULOUSLY smooth, way more lightweight, and you can be completely GNOME-free if you want. I personally chose to install gnome-network-manager and gcalctool because I prefer those apps over wicd and galculator, but thats it. Plus, the transition will be much easier because you already know the apt packaging system.

I want to be Gnome free, but which packages is it safe to delete? If I search 'gnome' in synaptic, I get 148 listed. Some can go, for sure, but some must stay. How do I know which is which ones Xfce requires? There must be some way of getting a list.

lifeinthegrey · 2012-05-24 04:46:51

rayandrews wrote:

lifeinthegrey wrote:
I know Arch is the best XFCE distro, but if you are at Xubuntu / LMDX level then that transition will be ... difficult. Honestly, Debian Testing + XFCE is RIDICULOUSLY smooth, way more lightweight, and you can be completely GNOME-free if you want. I personally chose to install gnome-network-manager and gcalctool because I prefer those apps over wicd and galculator, but thats it. Plus, the transition will be much easier because you already know the apt packaging system.
I want to be Gnome free, but which packages is it safe to delete? If I search 'gnome' in synaptic, I get 148 listed. Some can go, for sure, but some must stay. How do I know which is which ones Xfce requires? There must be some way of getting a list.

Well unfortunately your system, having being built on GNOME dependencies, will be very hard to modify to b GNOME free.. its not like removing an appendix; your system literally DEPENDS on those files. My avocation was for a system reinstall, because to right the ship and be GNOME free you need to start with a solid base.

And that's from a normal install like LMDX. If you're running Xubuntu multiply that level of difficulty by ten thousand. Seriously, if you want to be GNOME free, you'll need to start fresh.

rayandrews · 2012-05-24 14:27:30

lifeinthegrey wrote:

rayandrews wrote:
lifeinthegrey wrote:
I know Arch is the best XFCE distro, but if you are at Xubuntu / LMDX level then that transition will be ... difficult. Honestly, Debian Testing + XFCE is RIDICULOUSLY smooth, way more lightweight, and you can be completely GNOME-free if you want. I personally chose to install gnome-network-manager and gcalctool because I prefer those apps over wicd and galculator, but thats it. Plus, the transition will be much easier because you already know the apt packaging system.
I want to be Gnome free, but which packages is it safe to delete? If I search 'gnome' in synaptic, I get 148 listed. Some can go, for sure, but some must stay. How do I know which is which ones Xfce requires? There must be some way of getting a list.
Well unfortunately your system, having being built on GNOME dependencies, will be very hard to modify to b GNOME free.. its not like removing an appendix; your system literally DEPENDS on those files. My avocation was for a system reinstall, because to right the ship and be GNOME free you need to start with a solid base.
And that's from a normal install like LMDX. If you're running Xubuntu multiply that level of difficulty by ten thousand. Seriously, if you want to be GNOME free, you'll need to start fresh.

Thanks life, yeah, I know it depends on those Gnome bits and pieces, which is why I'm sweating the thing. But that sounds like the best advice. But then there's the hastle of reinstalling all my favorite stuff. Can I make that less painful? I'm thinking to transplant my existing /home into any new install and wouldn't it be nice if I could just transplant (say) /etc and /usr and whatever else and then have all my stuff without reinfecting my machine with garbage? Are there any shortcuts?

lifeinthegrey · 2012-05-25 05:35:15

rayandrews wrote:

Thanks life, yeah, I know it depends on those Gnome bits and pieces, which is why I'm sweating the thing. But that sounds like the best advice. But then there's the hastle of reinstalling all my favorite stuff. Can I make that less painful? I'm thinking to transplant my existing /home into any new install and wouldn't it be nice if I could just transplant (say) /etc and /usr and whatever else and then have all my stuff without reinfecting my machine with garbage? Are there any shortcuts?

Oh yeah dude, you can just copy all the stuff from your home partition from one to another. Certain theme- and cache-related items might not translate so smoothly (because a lot of it was for the GNOME stuff that you want to get rid of) but the files will obviously transfer just fine. But in terms of shortcuts ... other than copying files that aren't system files, not really. You are literally changing your entire system, so some things you just need to do over again.

But if you go the easy route (doing a standard Debian install with full XFCE desktop), it shouldn't take more than a couple hours to get everything back right as rain. I actually start with the base base BASE Debian install, and from the command line I install all the packages I need, basically building the whole system from scratch. I also mod a couple system files (like gvfs-backends causes thunar to delay on load unless u set automount of network shares to false, shit like that), I have this phat thing of notes. And even doing THAT, plus installing my custom GTK2 + GTK3 (to theme what few GNOME apps I have), takes me 1.5 hours. So I mean it really is very little time if you know what you want/need to change.

If you want, I could give you my notes. They can be a little overwhelming on the overview, but it is a VERY comprehensive set of packages. On all machines I run I have a full LAMP stack, graphic design suite, office suite, and home theater setup, so my notes reflect that. You probably don't need it (you know the packages you want, most likely), just offering.

rayandrews · 2012-05-25 13:28:31

lifeinthegrey wrote:

Oh yeah dude, you can just copy all the stuff from your home partition from one to another. Certain theme- and cache-related items might not translate so smoothly (because a lot of it was for the GNOME stuff that you want to get rid of) but the files will obviously transfer just fine. But in terms of shortcuts ... other than copying files that aren't system files, not really. You are literally changing your entire system, so some things you just need to do over again.
But if you go the easy route (doing a standard Debian install with full XFCE desktop), it shouldn't take more than a couple hours to get everything back right as rain. I actually start with the base base BASE Debian install, and from the command line I install all the packages I need, basically building the whole system from scratch. I also mod a couple system files (like gvfs-backends causes thunar to delay on load unless u set automount of network shares to false, shit like that), I have this phat thing of notes. And even doing THAT, plus installing my custom GTK2 + GTK3 (to theme what few GNOME apps I have), takes me 1.5 hours. So I mean it really is very little time if you know what you want/need to change.
If you want, I could give you my notes. They can be a little overwhelming on the overview, but it is a VERY comprehensive set of packages. On all machines I run I have a full LAMP stack, graphic design suite, office suite, and home theater setup, so my notes reflect that. You probably don't need it (you know the packages you want, most likely), just offering.

life,

Hey thanks man, yes, I'd love to look at your notes. I've always faulted Linux culture in that there's this tendency to presume that people know what they want before they even know what's available, and when they look at what's available they see lists of 50,000 packages which is just a bit overwhelming -- so for me, the solution is to look at what other people like and see what they've done. Also, getting some idea how to tweek this low level stuff will be most helpful. Catch me at rayandrews at eastlink dot ca.

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#1 2012-05-20 19:09:22

killing Gnome

#2 2012-05-21 03:53:13

Re: killing Gnome

#3 2012-05-21 13:55:20

Re: killing Gnome

#4 2012-05-21 14:01:49

Re: killing Gnome

#5 2012-05-21 14:37:40

Re: killing Gnome

#6 2012-05-21 14:53:46

Re: killing Gnome

#7 2012-05-21 16:31:48

Re: killing Gnome

#8 2012-05-21 17:52:02

Re: killing Gnome

#9 2012-05-21 18:03:53

Re: killing Gnome

#10 2012-05-22 00:38:18

Re: killing Gnome

#11 2012-05-22 02:49:01

Re: killing Gnome

#12 2012-05-24 01:58:54

Re: killing Gnome

#13 2012-05-24 03:12:48

Re: killing Gnome

#14 2012-05-24 04:46:51

Re: killing Gnome

#15 2012-05-24 14:27:30

Re: killing Gnome

#16 2012-05-25 05:35:15

Re: killing Gnome

#17 2012-05-25 13:28:31

Re: killing Gnome

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