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#51 2020-02-11 18:53:21

Aravisian
Member
Registered: 2019-08-17
Posts: 374

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

denyer wrote:

Which bit of which announcement are you referring to? Xfwm4 handles non-Xfce applications too and will be needed in some form for years. (X support being dropped in desktop environments is a long way away for most of them).

It may not have the same feature set but it'll be around.

Hmmm... no, I do not agree with your take, here.
There are two major factors to consider:
-What the XFWM does and where it differentiates from Xwindow which is a different thing
-What feature set is included in XFWM that you suggest would be gone, but XFWM still around
https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/4.16/roadm … ral_ui/csd
https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2020/01/xfc … decoration

Client Side Decoration means that the app would draw the window borders, which currently is done by XFWM4. Including XFWM4 in a build with CSD implemented in full makes XFWM4 redundant and superfluous--- Because the Xwindow system will handle the rest of window management.
XFWM4 does handle non-xfce applications but it Does NOT handle gtk3 CSD applications which is why many users of XFCE experience CSD apps already while using XFCE 4.12 and 4.14.
In its current state, XFCE 4.14 can be compiled to handle gtk2. However, 4.16 is slated to be fully gtk3 and you would not be able to compile it to handle gtk2. Pressure is on Gimp and Pinta...
XWindow is not the same as XFWM. XFCE got its initial name from the use of XForms by its creator, Oliver Fourdan. XWindow or X11 is from X.org.
XFCE 4.16 will not support the XFWM4 themes or window borders. And, in fact, it would be foolish to include it given the purpose of switching to CSD.
So, if you mean it will not include the same feature set; it must therefore not include XFWM as that feature set is what XFWM does and Xwindow will handle the rest.
While the developers cannot be quoted as directly saying, "XFWM4 is going to be 100% axed", it is revealed in indirect ways much like observing a Black Hole.
It will not still be around.

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#52 2020-02-11 21:04:41

denyer
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2018-10-20
Posts: 26
Website

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

Aravisian wrote:

XFCE 4.16 will not support the XFWM4 themes

Which is something different. Xfwm4 themes may not be selectable through the Xfce Settings app, or used by Xfce components/apps, but that doesn't equate to Xfwm4 being dumped (or the theme-handling code in Xfwm4 being dropped yet).

There's probably a whole dead parrot sketch yet to come.

In its current state, XFCE 4.14 can be compiled to handle gtk2. However, 4.16 is slated to be fully gtk3 and you would not be able to compile it to handle gtk2. Pressure is on Gimp and Pinta...

I was quite impressed that the version of Pinta in the Ubuntu repos started working again after a long period, considering it doesn't seem to have had a maintenance release for over half a decade.

GIMP 2.99.x dev releases are expected soon.

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#53 2020-02-12 19:27:28

denyer
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2018-10-20
Posts: 26
Website

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments … efault_in/

Did this one get posted already? Also mostly negative feedback from users, and people clinging to the hope that CSD might be optional.

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#54 2020-02-12 20:02:22

Aravisian
Member
Registered: 2019-08-17
Posts: 374

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

denyer wrote:

https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments … efault_in/

Did this one get posted already? Also mostly negative feedback from users, and people clinging to the hope that CSD might be optional.

I cannot help but read into it.... It's not that they want it optional as much as they don't want it and are hoping they will have the option to not enable it.
There is a difference...
This comment really stood out:

nintendiator2

it says "by default" and they are not Gnome so I fully expect a toggle.

I guess my yearly donation to XFCE will be on hold for a while.
level 1
varikonniemi
6 points ·
26 days ago

another one bites the dust

I wonder how many donors will say the same? I agree with your take that the vast majority of responses are negative toward CSD and many users are saying they use XFCE for the purpose of avoiding CSD.
It's not a scientific poll, but it's as near as you can get, really.
Some people like certain aspects of XFCE but also like CSD: https://forum.xfce.org/viewtopic.php?id=13756
In this thread we can find a vote in favor of the change.
I would be fine with it being Optional in principle, though I would worry that once that door is wedged open, it will take over anyway. Maybe before long, the option removed once users were conditioned to accept their fate.


One comment that stands out is that XFCE is understaffed. Perhaps a push to resolve that is something that should be considered. If people do not want CSD, maybe they can change that with some patronage.

Last edited by Aravisian (2020-02-12 20:04:07)

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#55 2020-02-12 21:22:14

ozjd
Member
From: Hawkesbury NSW Australia
Registered: 2012-02-05
Posts: 560
Website

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

The understaffed argument doesn't make sense. While I know that there are a very small number of developers working on Xfce if it is really a manpower issue why undertake a major change rather than improve the existing system?

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#56 2020-02-13 07:58:20

Aravisian
Member
Registered: 2019-08-17
Posts: 374

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

ozjd wrote:

The understaffed argument doesn't make sense. While I know that there are a very small number of developers working on Xfce if it is really a manpower issue why undertake a major change rather than improve the existing system?

This is a very good point but...
Not necessarily. While it may be a lot of initial work to get it started, it may mean a much lighter load in the long run.
I do not know either way- I am just throwing this out there to be fair.

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#57 2020-02-13 08:09:57

Aravisian
Member
Registered: 2019-08-17
Posts: 374

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

Aravisian wrote:
ozjd wrote:

The understaffed argument doesn't make sense. While I know that there are a very small number of developers working on Xfce if it is really a manpower issue why undertake a major change rather than improve the existing system?

This is a very good point but...
Not necessarily. While it may be a lot of initial work to get it started, it may mean a much lighter load in the long run.
I do not know either way- I am just throwing this out there to be fair.

EDIT:
@Denyer
Just for kicks... And I do not know if this actually counts as shameless plugging but...
From post #26.

denyer wrote:
Aravisian wrote:

When I first started using XFCE4 desktop, I noticed that problem right away. So, on my themes, I went into the XFWM4 folder and adjusted those images accordingly, giving them more space (Usually 9px) while leaving the Visible portion at 1px.

Do you have an example?

This past week, I decided I wanted to make a dark but elegant new theme based on many previous inspirations. I did a little trickery what with the XFWM4 theme and whatnot.
Since you asked for an example of it, here one is that you can examine (And criticise! I could use the help).
https://www.pling.com/p/1359446/

EDIT2: AWW NUTS! I hit quote instead of edit. Oh well... as if we needed more evidence of how often I make mistakes...

Last edited by Aravisian (2020-02-13 08:11:27)

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#58 2020-02-13 23:14:57

denyer
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2018-10-20
Posts: 26
Website

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

Could perhaps do with a little more resize area on the top border, for ease of double clicking to vertically maximise?

Looks good for anyone who likes retro and dark themes, reminds me a bit of graphics card branding and packaging from yesteryear.

Looking around Pling there are some neat looks like https://www.pling.com/p/1016558/ and https://www.pling.com/p/1016183/ that'll disappear with Xfwm4 theming, or even https://www.pling.com/p/1016463/ -- my general favourite's still https://www.pling.com/p/1016288/ though.

More reactions (non-English, Google Translate suggests a lot aren't complimentary);

https://www.muylinux.com/2020/01/16/xfc … -cds-gtk3/

https://geekland.eu/xfce-adoptara-clien … tions-csd/

Comparisons to Elementary, people pointing out that CSD doesn't consistently save space, that the community is likely to gradually abandon the DE over the decision, references to other DEs, etc. A few more positive comments. And "Nooo, mi roedor, ¿qué carajos te han hecho? :S"

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#59 2020-02-14 00:50:28

Aravisian
Member
Registered: 2019-08-17
Posts: 374

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

denyer wrote:

Could perhaps do with a little more resize area on the top border, for ease of double clicking to vertically maximise?

It is interesting that you say that- I almost made it larger, but then decided to leave it small size due to the complainst of "precious real estate".
I will upload a Larger XFWM4 shortly.

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#60 2020-02-16 17:59:13

daniel227
Member
Registered: 2012-03-14
Posts: 34

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

I also voted on the poll:
https://linkto.run/p/09R1M1FO

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#61 2020-02-24 01:48:00

denyer
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2018-10-20
Posts: 26
Website

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

Thought this was interesting since Arch pushes the latest packages, and something to watch in future;

https://www.reddit.com/r/kde/comments/f … top_among/
https://pkgstats.archlinux.de/compare/p … ,xfdesktop

Lre9Kjk.png

Xfdesktop begins a downward trend mid-way through 2019 around the time 4.14 was released.

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#62 Today 08:08:55

Aravisian
Member
Registered: 2019-08-17
Posts: 374

Re: Do you want to use CSD? No please!!

denyer wrote:

Thought this was interesting since Arch pushes the latest packages, and something to watch in future;

https://www.reddit.com/r/kde/comments/f … top_among/
https://pkgstats.archlinux.de/compare/p … ,xfdesktop

Xfdesktop begins a downward trend mid-way through 2019 around the time 4.14 was released.

This may not be related to the advent of CSD, but agreed that it is interesting. I will admit that I have found some perks with 4.14, in spite of still believing that 4.12 is superior in other ways.

In that shot, Gnome and XFCE seem to be tumbling together. Plasma seems on the rise. The rest seem mostly steady- but ALL of them appear to have a downward swoop all at the same time- a factor I am curious about.

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